Where are the German Wardrivers???

[Laurin]

Hi,

I'm from Germany and I live in Bavaria close to Augsburg. I would like to get in touch with some German-Wardrivers in my area. Sure I found some German forums already but the guys in there are a bit lame. It's not easy to find some reliable people here in Augsburg and around - I don't know why. However, is everybody here who is interested in Wardriving in Augsburg and around just give some sign of life with an answer to this posting.... I would be pleased.

yours
Laurin

[Laurin]

Dear Wardivers,

I have to give up my wardriving hoppy because the German law do not allow wardriving, some lawyers confirmed it - damn - so before I get any problems I'll try to be invisible....

yours
Laurin

[Petzl]

Can you post an article about that law?

Are Wifi based GPS systems also illegal ?

[Petzl]

I asked some german wardrivers for it, and wardriving is legal.

Wardriving = locating positions of accesspoints

Logging on to a accesspoint is illegal in every county

[Laurin]

Dear Petzl,

there is no article to deliver I'll show you some Laws § within the next 14 days to give you an extensive and detailed answer in this very hot topic, it is really hot - please give me that time to get in touch with all my peoples, lawers and friends who are involved. I would be pleased if you are right and I'm wrong belive me.
I guess you are from Germany - me too, may you know the so called "Fernmeldegeheimnis" ? This paragraph delives sleepless nights for wardrivers like you and me... I know there is no offical statement form the government or any case who brought someone into prison but I won't be the first - and I also think that this is the main problem wardriving isn't exact defined by law... to go on in this matter in English is really hard for me. However I hope that I'm totally wrong please give me the mentioned time to collect all the sources.

yours faithfully
Laurin

[Petzl]

I'm from belgium, i translated you word to "Communications secret".
In belgium they called it "computer peace crack" (reading transmitted data like tekst is illegal (post/mail secret), hacking, ect. ...)


If they catch you, you don't need to say you're wardriving.
(problems with GPS program, ect)

- I think there is also european laws that gives you the option to recieve every transmitted frequency, but doesn't alows you to hear/capture/remembering it)

I think it was this "the freedom of information acquisition, laid down in the Treaty of Rome"


- What kan they say if you leave your computer on the backseat?
- What is you have a build-in computer?
- Is a computer as a GPS system allowed?
- Is it illegal to search for Hotspot providers?
- If it's not Legal to have a website about wardriving and results, just post the date to wigle (i'm also woking on a european version of my site and maps)
- You can host your site outside germany and using a .com adress (even on my name)


SOMETIMES PEOPLE NEED TO MAKE THEIR OWN LAWS

Note:

Kismet is logging datapackets (possible to turn it off?)
Netstumbler is probing for networks that answers.

I'm also working on Wifi / Cell-id based positioning systems, if you want to use systems like that you need to know the exact location of accesspoints, there is no other option than doing it with wardriving.

[Laurin]

Dear Petzl,

ok ok all your mentioned topics are right I also know its better to hide instead to say lound and clear "I'm Wardriving, ....halloooo!!! Here I'm...!" (Laurin = invisible).
You also right that some technology is based on a kind of wardriving at least WLans... but all your arguments testify not that wardriving is legal or not - however your argumentation is quite smart! There is a law gap.
But what now? Ok, we make our own laws but is that really a secure solution for our great hobby and for us too? What is your definition of Wardriving?
Please give me my mentioned time to collect facts then we can compare our knowledge - if there is no charge, there is no court.

L.

[argh]

Hi, I am in USA and cannot advise you about German law. I know that some interpetations of the law consider the recording of data informations from another person's network illegal, like a wiretap. The beacons and SSID may not count; i think this talking more about data, like email or websites.

You can turn off the dump in kismet.conf so that you are not storing any data. Remember that programs like Netstumbler transmit to the AP and make it respond, and that Kismet is completely passive and does not transmit. An AP's logs could potentially show Netstumbler access, there is nothing that can show Kismet.

The antennae used for GPS/wardriving are small and do not call a lot of attention to themselves. If it is night and your car is small, a laptop may be visible from the outside just from the light. Some wardrivers keep the laptop in the trunk or boot of the car.

If you keep the laptop near driver's seat, some places have laws about devices that are OK for passenger to see, but would be a distraction for the driver. Also keep in mind, that it is possible to be running the very nice GPSdrive at the same time as Kismet, it will show your position live on a map. If you were being stopped by police, a quick Shift Q will exit Kismet in seconds, and you can be a GPS hobbyist trying out your GPS. If you remain polite and do not say anything about wardriving or wireless networks, they would have to confiscate your laptop and look through it to prove that you were.

A good thing about using GPSdrive at the same time, is that it draws a track of where you have been. If you are driving in a strange residential area that you are not familiar with, there is nothing wrong with driving by anyplace once. If you are lost however, and keep driving past houses repeatedly, this is suspicious behaviour. GPSdrive will let you see at a glance that you have already driven down this street.

Good Luck, and let us know what you learn!

[KH]

Disclaimers: I'm not from Germany (but the neighbours to the west, the Netherlands) and I am not a lawyer.

The European "Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms" (also known as "The treaty of Rome) says in article 10:

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

(source: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commu ... 006&CL=ENG)

This article is (for as far as I know) usually interpreted to mean 'it is freely allowed to receive broadcast signals'. This is also usually interpreted as to not include decryption or other 'special actions' to find out the meaning of signals.

But, Germany is stricter in these laws. I have heard that radio scanners were only 'recently' (compared to other countries) allowed in Germany and the scanner needs to have a button to clear the frequency memories in case you get pulled over by the police.

A google search on 'wardriving deutschland' gives me the first hit http://www.wardriving-forum.de/ where I find a story of a wardriver getting a visit from the police because his activity was detected on some network. (I can read German, but I'm not going to translate all that) That forum also has a lot more information on the legalities of wardriving in Germany, read there for better answers.

I made the personal choice months ago to stop saving the data dump in Kismet. I was seeing information from private networks not ment for me, it was not adding anything to the wardriving results and it was taking up a lot of diskspace.

[Laurin]

Dear Petzl, Argh, KH, *

thanx a lot for all your posted suggestions, I have not collected all my needed facts to go on with this discussion... because I have not found any time for that. I'm a student and during the next 2,5 weeks I have to write 4 exams... please understand my situation, sorry for this delay. I'll keep my promise within the next 3 weeks.

yours faithfully
Laurin

[KH]

I'm a student and during the next 2,5 weeks I have to write 4 exams...

Good luck with your exams! Important stuff comes first ;)

[Laurin]

Dear Petzl, Argh, KH, *

finally I worked out some interesting laws about the big question: "Is wardriving in Germany legal or not!?" I'm from Germany and I can only speak for my country - keep that in mind. First I'll mention the laws and then some conclusions.

Here in Germany we have the so called StGB (Strafgesetzbuch)/GG (Grundgesetz) and there I found something. But before I go on here is my personal definition of wardriving:

Diving around with my car and my homebrew antenna on top, using Kismet or Wellenreiter + GPS to find APs or clients. Laughing about strange SSIDs, but never never enter or touch any APs, Networks or clients (according the DEFCon-Ethics). If there is the change to get in touch with the net-owner I offer my support to close the security gap for free. I just keep the generated XML-File for Wigle upload the rest goes to dev0.

Now is the question: Is my acting legal or not?

First of all we take a look to the StGB/GG and we find.:

§ 202a, "Spying out traffic" (Ausspähen von Daten).
§ 263a, "Computing fraud" (Computerbetrug).
§ 265a, "Subreption of service" (Erschleichen von Leistungen).
§ 303a, "Data influencing" (Datenveränderung).
§ 303b, "Sabotage of Computers" (Computersabotage).
§ 88, "Confidentiality telecommunication" (Fernmeldegeheimnis).

Lets go...
§ 202a (1) means collecting data which is crypted/secured and not for puplic use is facts constituting an offence in sence of this §. This can bring you 3 years into prison or you have to pay a lot of money.
§ 202a (2) is about the data itself, it says in sence of (1) data of any kind or traffic data of any kind.

I.Conclusion.:
Ok, I collecting data but only the SSID and BSSID and these are never crypted they are the puplic part of the traffic - but a part and thats the main problem. However the uncrypted part are also not made for me and puplic use -> Wigle... so I have a problem.

§§ 263a, 265a, 303a, 303b these laws do not hit me because my wardriving-ethic in general these laws are made for the black sheeps who try to penetrate into networks and also for men in the middle attacks and so on.... I think you know what I mean .

§ 88, "Confidentiality telecommunication" (Fernmeldegeheimnis)(1) as the name says it defines secured communication. It is not allowed to take part on aktive communikations and also not allowed is the successless try. (2) not so important for us. (3) Furthermore it is not allowed to collect information and everything around the communication. The law means also the user and the tech behind this act of communication process and it is not allowed to bring any kind of the mentioned information into puplic...

II.Conclusion.:
..I wonder everything seems to be forbitten here in Germany .

I ask my Prof. on the Uni and some lawyers in my neigborhood they confirmed my conclusions - the only legal way to do wardriving is to ask all the people for an agreement, but this is nonsence. I know all the arguments for wardriving but law is law. The main problem - as we already know - is that the act of Wardriving itself is not clearly defined by German law; they just transfere old exsisting laws to new technology - so it seems that the court can see it as they like to see it. I'm at a loss to understand how should this system work in futur. However my advice for all Wardrivers who live or visit Germany just realize your risc.

yours sincerely
Laurin

Last edited by Laurin on Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

[argh]

you are doing the best thing by asking lawyers. none (or few) of us here have experience or knowledge of german law, and your profs may not either in this area. make sure that the lawyers you ask understand completely how wardriving works.

there are many comparisons to the beacons and SSID informaton, "don't play your music loud across the street and tell the neighbor he cannot listen" is perhaps a simplistic view, but much of it holds true.

It might come down to what is considered data and communication by your laws. the beacons and SSID are not part of the user's private email, but it is certainly a byproduct. you are not interfering in any manner, or capturing any of his private information.

your definition of wardriving is the correct one, with the possible exception of contacting them about their network being insecure. most don't know or care, and a stranger talking to them about this can seem invasive. if it's someone you know, then it is fine to discuss it. a few years ago, people used to do this and make money by charging them to secure it. some people get arrested for trying also.

what is confusing in all this, is that many versions of Windows will by default connect to the strongest AP and associate with it BY DEFAULT. this seems closer to an illegal activity than wardriving.

[Laurin]

Dear Argh,*,

thank you for your minds. I'll try to keep in touch with the lawyers and as soon as I know something new I'll post it.

yours sincerely
Laurin