Health Concerns

[izzy4505]

Frequently while wardriving, and setting up wireless networks with high gain antennas, and higher power transceivers, I've noticed symptoms of headache, and eyes being sore, along with the occasional gut ache. I always passed it off as a placebo, this weekend I did a test of this, but surveying a van full of people who noticed the symptoms, and then at a time unknown to them, turned the transmitter off. About 15 to 20 mins after turning off the transmitter, they all agreed that the symptoms were gone. I'm curious as to how wide spread this is, and whether or not all of us wardrivers are killing ourselves doing this. Please post whether you've noticed symptoms, whether it concerns you or not, and what kind of a rig you have.

[uhtu]

no symptoms. just an orinoco + 4.5dBi antenna. no amp (non-car stumbler :-)

[bobzilla]

1 watt amp, 8dbi omni. Before I moved the antenna outside of the car I would get headaches, now that it's magmounted on the trunk that's gone away.

[mycroft]

you realize you're putting high-power microwaves ... you know, the stuff you cook food with in that little box with all of the buttons ... very close to your person?

so, being neither a doctor nor a lawyer, I would guess that if living next to microwave towers and high-power transmission lines have been known to increase risks of nasty things, your sitting within a few feet of 1W of 2.4Ghz goodness isn't doing _good_ things. i'm starting to wonder if sitting in the middle of an office where everyone is using 802.11a&g is the reason for my incredibly uncharacteristic headaches of the last few months (coinciding with the introduction of the AP 6 feet from my head)

[Guest]

Microwaves used as a cooking device were discovered by accident this way. A maritime operator had a chocolate bar in his pocket while working on the xmit dish. Someone in the operating room started to dx and it melted his chocolate bar. That's why whenever your working on a mic. dish, you have to lock the door to your xmit room!

[renny]

Having a similar rig to bobzilla I have noticed headaches after 2 hours of driving with my magmount on the rear roof. My guess is that moving to Kismet would fix alot of these issues (passive vs active) scanning.

[Guest]

The ARRL has exposure guidelines for amateur radio operators and they can apply here too. 3 wavelengths is the minimum you should be from any transmiting device. Magmounts on your roof have a giant groundplane below it to keep the signal from hitting you, a magmount on your trunk and the signals blast right through the window.

I don't want to freak anyone out, but the average human eyeball resonates 2.4GHz very efficiently, meaning it absorbs most of the energy. While 1w isn't much power a constant duration could lead to issues. While working on radio sites one way you can tell you screwed up and walked into a microwave path is your eyes get hot very fast. I have a 50w and 60w radio (not wifi) on my car, and fire engines normally have 110w radios, so I don't know how much is all in your head and how much is actual problems, but limiting your exposure is always a good idea.

Nick

[Schwa-D-Alien]

Exposure to microwaves can lead to cancer. Unfortunately for us the effects are cumulative, so all the exposure we encounter adds up over our lifetime to produce various biological effects.

One thing they discovered recently is that the body will send out these special heat-damage proteins to an area (well inside) the body that's being "cooked" by radio waves. These proteins surround the heated area to protect it, but that affected area is now more likely to become cancerous and because of these heat-damage proteins protecting the now cancerous cells the body cannot destroy the cancer as it normally would (and does all the time) so the cancer gets a chance to get growing without the body able to defend itself because it has already protected the area for heat. This is more of a concern for cell-phones since the transmitter is right next to the head, as well as the new TETRA system the police are using in the UK.

Now... on a little different note, and a little less "scientific" there are some interesting devices that claim to be able to neutralize the harmful effects of the low-level radiation we're exposed to. The devices are usually called "tower busters" or "holy hand grenades" and are basically metal particles of various shapes and sizes suspended in an organic substance (hydrocarbons) like fiberglass resin, along with certain crystals, like quartz. Essentially the idea is that these devices are like air purifiers for the living energy (called many things, but most people refer to it as Orgone) that gets damaged by RF transmissions amongst other things. I was rather skeptical about the possibility of such a device having any effect at all on me, but I did buy a holy hand grenade (5 crystal design) and incredibly now I don't get headaches after being around WiFi equipment for a long time. Might be a good idea to have a TB in the wardriving kit for good measure, they can be made fairly easily or you can buy them pretty cheap, just do a google, there are lots of folks selling them.

If you want to get to know about Orgone and what that's all about check out the guy who discovered it http://www.wilhelmreichmuseum.org/biography.html

[Sith4dmin]

I figured that after I started spending hours at my desk surrounded by CRTs, some of them old, and absorbing whatever my AP and client adapters were doing, I would definitely get cancer eventually. Seriously, we all will, by which I mean more or less every American alive today. Nobody can live in this environment without paying for it in the middle to last decades of their lives. Just stop worrying about it.

[jason_m]

The threat is very real. The problem is absorpion of the signal. Anything above about 1 ghz is absorbed by our body and produces heat, which causes the damage others have described. Eyes too absorb microwaves very well. Most lower frequency radios (like CB or most ham) do not pose a threat, even at high power. This is because at those lower frequencies, there is very little or no absorpion, as the signal just goes right through our bodies harmlessly.

Now, I want to touch on cell phones. Years ago there was concern that there could be problems. There was indeed some problems as they were close to the 1 ghz mark - or about 800mhz. But today, things are different. Cell phones today are far worse. They are 1.8ghz, are digital, and can pulse higher powers than analog phones.

So imagine your car - is a metal box. You put that microwave transmitter inside there with you - wether it's a cell phone or an access point. That signal is going to be bouncing around in there trying to escape (metal reflects microwaves) . Your car just concentrates the signal in there. Think of putting your head in between two transmitting yaggis. Though an unamped AP is not likely to cause problems, but even a one watt amp will - Move the transmitter and antenna away from you, or if in a car; put the antenna outside, and the transmitter and amp in the trunk.

[jason_m]

I figured that after I started spending hours at my desk surrounded by CRTs, some of them old, and absorbing whatever my AP and client adapters were doing, I would definitely get cancer eventually. Seriously, we all will, by which I mean more or less every American alive today. Nobody can live in this environment without paying for it in the middle to last decades of their lives. Just stop worrying about it.

Older CRTs can emmit x-rays, but modern ones don't really emit anything harmfull. And, the AP's and client adapters are most likely not more than 100mw of power. They're pretty safe, unless you hold them against your head or do something stupid.

[Sith4dmin]

Heh, do I look like I use anything low power? I have 200mw Senaos and SMCs (Z-Com).

[[Fe]fox]

Im running a 200mw Senao at least 10 hours a day while driving antenna is on roof and about 4 feet away, I dont notice a thing...

well my coffee never seems to cool off tho... hmmmm


[Fe]fox

[bhoberg]

I never really noticed the heat generated or have any headaches...of course this could be due to the foil hat I wear to keep the aliens from stealing my bandwidth!

[argh]

<snip>I don't want to freak anyone out, but the average human eyeball resonates 2.4GHz very efficiently, meaning it absorbs most of the energy.Nick

schmoo group pointed out at Defcon 12 that your testicles are resonant at that frequency also. i myself nearly always use Kismet in vehicle, and as it does not transmit at all, i do not notice any problems. as long as you have a metal top and antenna on top of it, you should not have any problems.

as someone else mentioned, a key distance in RF exposure is how many wavelengths you are away from the source. 2.4 ghz has a tiny, tiny wavelength compared to your FM radio. my SMC 2532W-B 200mw had a sheet stuck in it to stay 5 cm away while it is transmitting. 5 cm isn't very far, but think of the testicles, men (laptop use without external antenna).

the guys at FABcorp told me you should stay 5 feet behind a 19 dbi parabolic while it is transmitting. like many things, damage is probably being done well below the threshold of discomfort.